Published on January 17th, 2008 | by Guest Contributor1
GTR: Eco-friendly Signage with Green Banners
Sean Daily, Green Living Ideas’ Editor-In-Chief, talks sustainable printing technologies and creating the world’s first eco-friendly banner, signage, and printing company with Don Jackson, founder of Green Banners.
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Sean Daily: Hello everybody. This is Sean Daily. Today is another
installment of Green Talk radio from greenlivingideas.com and I’m
really excited to have a local businessperson on the program with me to
discuss the topic of green banners for companies and their marketing
efforts. His name is Don Jackson and he is the owner of a company
called Green Banners. He’s also a photographer.
Don, welcome to the program.
Don Jackson: Great to be here Sean. Thank you very much.
Sean Daily: So a mutual friend of ours introduced us. A guy named
Allan Hardman, I believe, was the first person who made the
Don Jackson: Yes, that’s correct.
Sean Daily: Allan is an old client of mine, and friend; a good guy
all around. He’s also an author for those of you interested in
self-improvement or the Toltec ways of wisdom; he’s a famous author.
Allan had mentioned to me about what you were doing. He said,
“You’ve got to talk to Don, because he is doing a business based on
printing green banners. He’s the first one in the country, I think, who
has really made a business out of turning banners–using green
materials, green processes and such; and has a photographic background.”
Can you tell us a little about how you got the idea and also how that evolved from your photography background?
Don Jackson: Great. Thanks Sean. Allan is a great guy. I just spent
two weeks in Mexico doing photography with him with one of his
workshops. He’s just fabulous. If anybody has any interest, I recommend
The whole banner biz started more evolutionary than revolutionary as
an extension of my photography business. I do fine art and printing. I
had a photo client that asked me to do some banners for them. I said,
“Well, gosh. I guess I could do that. I do big prints.” So I checked
with the largest national wholesaler for banner material, got the right
stuff, made one and went, “Well this stuff really stinks!”
It turns out it was made out of vinyl and it was outgassing. I said,
boy, something is wrong with this. I was pretty naïve about it at the
time. I printed some banners for a local client and one of the other
people in the staff said, “Oh! Vinyl!” I said, “Whoa! Wait a minute. I
need to look at this.” So with some prompting from them and some other
clients encouraging me to find another solution, I was surprised there
was nobody in the country focusing on environmentally friendly signage,
which seemed exciting and appalling at the same time.
Sean Daily: Yes, opportunity and problem all in one.
Don Jackson: Yes, so then I searched and searched and searched and
found a material. When you talk about a green product or a green
process, it becomes splitting hairs. Is this more green than that? In
trying to differentiate that, an example would be one of my products is
a recycled polypropylene which is a food grade plastic unlike vinyl so
it doesn’t outgas, doesn’t have the toxic properties of vinyl. And it’s
also recyclable which vinyl is not either.
It is a product that is a petroleum-based product but it is already
recycled and recyclable and it’s non-toxic in that sense. Or, do I go
with cotton that is difficult to use outdoors if there’s weather and
the whole process of the pesticides for cotton production and things
like that. How do you weigh those and equate those? It becomes really
Sean Daily: It sure is. It’s all relative, right? Anything is
probably better than offgassing vinyl but then you start getting into
it and there are degrees of greenness.
Don Jackson: Right. The true enemy is vinyl and clearly, all the
other stuff–there are so many other products that earn a whole
separate weight compared to that so any one of those is a good product.
Sean Daily: So what did you end up choosing? Did you make more than one choice?
Don Jackson: I give people choices. I try to inform them about all
the properties of the different materials. Polypropylene is the most
common because it is the most versatile. You can use it indoors. It
prints beautifully. It has a beautiful matte finish. It’s very flat
unlike vinyl, which has kind of a wavy texture and has that nice garage
sale look to it. By the time you hem it and put grommets in, it has
that plasticky look. Where, this material doesn’t require any hemming.
We use a poly flat grommet so it looks very, very nice and it prints
like a fine art matte finish print.
Sean Daily: One of the things that in my opinion is going to
change–consumer perception changes with the culture. So I think that
just as things that maybe before looked good, I’m hoping in terms of
people’s consciousness that they start looking at vinyl and go: That’s
not cool. Whereas shiny vinyl, maybe in the past was like: “Ooh! That’s
what I want for my corporate look.” But now what you’re advertising is
your complete lack of consciousness.
Now I have to forgive people based on the lack of availability. I
understand, as you discovered it was a business opportunity but maybe
that hasn’t been an opportunity with a lot of marketing materials and
I’ve run into this myself. But certainly I think what may happen, and I
hope we’ll see happen, is that the perception will change where people
will start seeing what may have in the past been considered something
that was less desirable becoming more desirable because of its social
Don Jackson: I agree. And also it’s an education thing on my part. I
try to have a note guilt discussion with people like: Look. I know you
have a vinyl banner. But for the most part, that’s the only choice you
knew back then and things are different now. So now you have a choice.
You have green choices.
Sean Daily: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It’s nice; I applaud you for
your vision in this area. Again I’ve said that we’ve run into this.
When I heard about the idea from Allan, what you were doing, I was
intrigued because as a company we have to market, promote ourselves and
go to trade shows and things like that, produce business cards. You
know, all the things that are obligatory. We stay as electronic as
possible because that’s certainly very green but sometimes you’re
forced into the old media world as it were, right?
And we found it really challenging to find a lot of choices with
certain types of materials: postcards and business cards. They exist
and they are out there. But I guess one would think that there would be
a larger array of choices than there really are in some cases.
Don Jackson: Yeah and the more that we even take a step in the right
direction, even though we may not have an ultimate solution now, the
larger the industry goes green in say, the banners or any other
industry, the more dollars that are at stake for the manufacturers, the
more they are going to get sucked in by vacuum. If they aren’t in the
leadership already, they’re going to want a piece of that action.
Sean Daily: Yeah, definitely. You have first mover advantage. And
that’s a good thing. I don’t know if you’ve already run into or if it’s
on the horizon but at some point it’s clearly a sound idea that has a
market behind it. Invitations are the sincerest form of flattery even
though when it comes in the form of competition from a business
standpoint, it doesn’t always feel good. I imagine that probably a lot
of companies are going to jump into this.
Don Jackson: Oh yeah. And another thing that we bring that is really
unique too is, we don’t come from a sign printing background, we come
from a fine art background. So we not only bring a green aspect, we
bring a fine art aspect.
For some people, the person wants the one color vinyl banner saying,
“SALE!” That’s not our market, although we’d like to green everybody.
But the people who want full on photo-quality graphics in a green
manner, they really appreciate what we’re doing and that’s really our
Sean Daily: I’m curious about the specifics. Can you tell me about the kinds of inks you’re using?
Don Jackson: Yes, we’re using a water-based pigment ink. Unlike
typical sign company banners, the big guys are all using–well not all
of them– the majority of them are using solvent based inks which is a
really nasty ink that they have to have big hoods and ventilation and
big high power consumption machines. It’s a really big business.
But they can use really inexpensive material that doesn’t have any
special coatings or anything. And they’re used to, say, slap them
through. So their cost to producing things is way less than mine but
environmentally it’s way higher. We’re actually a zero carbon footprint
production facility here. So we use very little power and very, very
Sean Daily: How have you have achieved that? Not to change the topic
but I’m curious about how you achieved the zero carbon footprint.
Don Jackson: For one, our processes are very low power consumption.
The printers, instead of drawing thousands and thousands of watts like
the big ones might, our printers actually draw 165 watts in full
production. So they’re just very efficient printers in that light.
Plus we’ve gone to extensively use compact fluorescent and LED
lighting. We have an efficient design. I’m in the production facility
right now. It’s nice and bright and we have zero lights on in the whole
Sean Daily: That’s great. I’m the light nazi around here too. I
flick the switches off as I walk down the hallway. I need to get one of
those automated systems, it would be a lot easier but it works for now.
Just jumping back to the inks in traditional banner printing. You
mentioned the process that a traditional facility uses. Is the danger,
or the environmental danger and impact related to the actual product in
the ink itself or the off gassing or the byproducts of that process or
is it both?
Don Jackson: I’m not an expert on that but I know that the solvent
inks are–I’ve been told that they’re toxic and also there is
offgassing in that process. So the whole ventilation systems and all
that stuff–well great. You’ve got ventilation but where is that stuff
going? It’s going out into the ozone.
Sean Daily: Right.
Don Jackson: We don’t have any of those issues, which is really nice.
Sean Daily: That’s great. Very cool.
So also, you talked about the artistic side of this, which is great.
I think it’s just an extra bonus that most people wouldn’t expect in
working with a company that was more centered around the sustainability
factor. What would you say makes your banners fine art quality?
Don Jackson: The equipment we use is state of the art fine art
quality printing equipment. Rather than made for ultimate speed, we are
made for ultimate quality. Most sign or banner shops would use a
four-color or six-color printer. Most are four color, four different
colors of ink. We use a 12-color ink process so we have a wider range
of colors we can print. These are the same printers I do museum quality
fine art prints for, for myself and other photographers and painters.
Sean Daily: So if it’s good enough for those guys, it’s good enough
for business and your standard banner for a trade show or something.
Don Jackson: Absolutely. As I said earlier, it’s a little overkill
for some of the less critical graphics in the banner industry but for
the people that really appreciate it, that really want great color–I
get calls from clients that get their banners, they go, “Wow! I can’t
believe how great this looks!”
Sean Daily: That’s great and so I’m just curious on the cost side.
What would be a typical, if there is a typical premium that one would
pay or a business would pay to have a green banner versus a standard
banner from Fast Signs or whoever it is.
Don Jackson: Yeah that’s a common question. People somewhat assume
in a lot of other areas that are green you have to pay a little extra.
We wanted to bring greenness to the banner biz and also fine art at the
same time; and we’re price competitive.
Sean Daily: That’s great. So in terms of a percentage on a
typical–again if such a thing exists–on a typical job or quote, what
would you expect: a fifty percent premium? A hundred percent? Twenty
Don Jackson: I would say, depending upon the material, if we’re head
to head with the same material, we can be straight up, we might even be
less than some competitors.
Sean Daily: Really?
Don Jackson: Max maybe 20 percent depending upon the configuration.
Sean Daily: That’s great. That’s very reasonable considering the
premiums associated with a lot of eco-friendly options out there.
Don Jackson: Oh yes. Where we can’t compete is when somebody needs
50,000 banners and they’re comparing it to a solvent-based process
where they can print on material that costs us a tenth of what ours
costs. There is no way I can compete with that. We’re not looking for
Sean Daily: Sure, that makes sense.
Don Jackson: I’d love that market to go green.
Sean Daily: Right, in whatever way but that’s another sort of strata, I suppose, in terms of production.
Don Jackson: That’s one of the things I’m considering, like what’s
next for Green Banners? Do I go around and “green” all the other banner
printers? Is that a project I want to take on and make that available
to other people? What’s my legacy in this? What’s the bigger picture?
Sean Daily: Right. Where do you make the most positive impact?
Don Jackson: Yeah.
Sean Daily: Not that I’m any kind of a career counselor but one of
the things that occurred to me as you were saying that was providing
eco-consulting. In fact, I was just talking to an eco-coach who coaches
businesses on going green with their processes and employees and such.
We were talking to her and I was thinking something like that but in
the print industry or even just the banner industry if somebody who has
walked that road and maybe can provide insight as to how they can
improve the processes.
Don Jackson: Yeah, absolutely.
Sean Daily: Well let me know if anything happens with that. In the
meantime we will definitely continue to watch what you’re doing with
Just switching gears a little bit, can you tell us about bio-degradability as it relates to these banners?
Don Jackson: Yeah, and that’s an interesting subject because tie
that with competition. There are a couple of companies that are using
biodegradable materials and calling it a green process and yet it’s
vinyl. So it’s still toxic to manufacture and to use and it takes, I
think they stated, five years in ideal conditions in a landfill before
it degrades if there are particular enzymes present. I’m not clear on
what it degrades to, if all that toxicity magically goes away because
there are some enzymes present.
So our products aren’t biodegradable. Some are, some aren’t. The
polypropylene is not but it is recyclable. The polypropylene is
curbside five. The cotton of course is biodegradable and so is the
canvas. We’re actually looking at sampling some hemp here real quick.
I’d love to be printing on hemp and I just got some information on
Sean Daily: Interesting, bamboo. I hadn’t heard about that. Hemp
definitely makes a lot of sense. We were just talking to Manitoba
Harvest who is actually a hemp food manufacturer about that product and
obviously it’s very, very sustainable and has many different
uses–very, very interesting.
We’re actually going to take a quick commercial break right here and
then we will be right back with Don Jackson from Green Banners.
OK and we are back with Don Jackson from Green Banners at
greenbanners.com; Don is the owner. We’re talking today about, well
really the market that you’ve invented or come up with which is
printing sustainable printing of banners for marketing materials and
other uses in businesses. I think we were just talking about the
materials and biodegradability. I didn’t know if you had anything else
you wanted to say about that before we switch on to the next question.
Was there anything you didn’t get to cover?
Don Jackson: I like the fact that the polypropylene is actually
recyclable. I think it’s a more direct process than waiting for three
to five years for a toxic vinyl banner–only the special ones with the
built in enzymes–that will actually degrade in a landfill. It just
seems like a better reusability path. And whether or not that vinyl
banner actually gets recycled or not, decomposes or biodegrades is hard
Sean Daily: It kind of requires studies behind all these things to
really know. So I’m curious, what about outdoor use of the banners?
Don Jackson: It’s great. I do it all the time. The polypropylene
is–I wouldn’t call it waterproof just from the legal standpoint–but
it’s virtually waterproof. I don’t think I’d put it underwater for
months; I don’t think it would hold up. But using it outdoors in the
rain, the inks, even though they’re water based, they are water
resistant. We’ve had banners up for months and months, outdoors and
through the winter and not had any problem.
Sean Daily: So any Atlantians that are maybe considering any
underwater tradeshows should not apply to this but everybody else can,
Don Jackson: Actually, for them we might do an eco-clear coating over both sides of the banner and the edges.
Sean Daily: There you go!
Don Jackson: Of course it would be for short-term use. Our other
materials such as the cotton and the canvas are less water proof or
water resistant. If they’re in fog or a little drizzle, that might be
OK. But if you’re in a downpour, the cotton would eventually absorb the
water unless we substantially coat it with a water based eco-friendly
coating, which is certainly possible as well.
Sean Daily: OK good. Another question I have for you was about your
market right now. I know that you’re here in Sonoma County with us.
We’re in Santa Rosa and you’re in Forestville, which is not too far
away. Is that your market? Is it just regional or statewide? Or have
you gone national.
Don Jackson: Sonoma County is a very small market for me in terms of
my overall market. More than half of my materials get sent to the east
Sean Daily: Wow.
Don Jackson: Yeah, throughout the United States. It’s a very small percentage that I actually do here in Sonoma County.
Sean Daily: Interesting. So I’m wondering if you don’t mind me
asking about your marketing for those people who are eco-preneurs out
there, eco entrepreneurs that are looking to start businesses like
this. Have you achieved most of the recognition through traditional
media or has it been through Google searching and search engine
optimization and getting on the radar screen that way?
Don Jackson: It’s been an offshoot of my photography business. I
wanted to offer it and I knew it was a big market but I wasn’t sure how
aggressively I wanted to pursue it. So after seeing that
greenbanners.com wasn’t registered as a website, I snagged that and two
days later had a website up thanks to Stacy at Graphics & Green.
Ever since then it has been really grassroots. I joined Coop America
Business Network and became a certified green business through Coop
America. That has been primarily my main focus for advertising, which
has been really minimal, and really grassroots and word of mouth and
Then Google has me as number one on their non-paid search engine. So
if you google green banners or environmentally friendly banners, I
often come up first.
Sean Daily: That’s great. Congratulations on that.
Don Jackson: Yeah thanks. Through no search engine optimization or anything else, it’s working out pretty well.
Sean Daily: That’s great. Well we’re going to take one more quick
break and then I have another question for Don Jackson, Green Banners
and then we’ll be right back. Thanks everybody.
All right. And we’re back talking about green banners for businesses
and for whomever else might be interested in printing banners. I’m
talking to Don Jackson who is the owner of Green Banners,
Don, just one other question I had for you today before we conclude
is about your production of the banners. Can you tell us about where
you are actually doing that? Are you outsourcing that? Are you doing it
Don Jackson: The beauty is, we do it all here from start to finish.
The only thing we don’t do, is produce the substrates–the actual
material it gets printed on. That comes from a big mill. Everything is
done here, shipped out of Forestville. We do a lot of FedEx and ship
them all over the country. We do local delivery. It seems like our
Sonoma clientele is building but again we’ll see what happens.
Sean Daily: Well I just think this is a great story and it’s a great
example. We’re in a time where there is a lot of fearfulness around
jobs going overseas and the need for manufacturing to occur in places
like China to compete on costs and everything. What I’m hearing from
you is that you started a business in green; you leveraged the existing
knowledge. You started without even going crazy with SEO and all these
things that people dump tons of money into.
You were able to effectively market your business, get a nationwide
audience, profitable product that you’re price competitive on; a green
certified business. You’re producing it locally, keeping jobs in Sonoma
County and all of that. It’s a great story both in terms of the
national economy as well as in terms of sustainability.
Don Jackson: It has worked well. It has been a real natural
evolution and without all the big corporate structure and surroundings
and all those kinds of things which I’ve been there and done that. I
really love it and also, if people call up, I’m probably the one
they’re going to talk to on the phone. I can spend time with them and
give them guidance.
I just had somebody call for a tradeshow that needed a banner and
they were going to get a small one and put it in the front. I talked to
them about their tradeshow booth and how they’re designing it and the
flow of people coming in. Partly, I want to be part of their success.
Sean Daily: Yeah.
Don Jackson: I want to help them be successful. That’s where the fun
is for me. Rather than just: Great. Here’s the order. Got it off the
web. Print it. Send it out–and I have no relationship with people.
Sean Daily: You’re enjoying the business, which is the only way to go in my opinion. You’re enjoying your work.
Don Jackson: Oh yeah. I want to be part of the solution that people
are doing. I want to help them in what they’re up to and where they’re
going. Most of the people that I work with are somehow connected to
some form of a green business and they are just wonderful people.
Sean Daily: That’s great. Again, it’s a very inspiring story. We
wish you much continued success with Green Banners and anything else
you might do. Maybe that consulting gig we talked about if you decide
to do that.
Don Jackson: Yeah.
Sean Daily: Great. My guest today has been Don Jackson. He’s the
owner of Green Banners. You can find them online at greenbanners.com.
They produce, as you might guess, sustainable and green banners. It has
been a pleasure having you on the show with us Don. Thanks for being
Don Jackson: It’s been great Sean. Thank you so much and thanks for Green Living Ideas.
Sean Daily: Thanks as always to everyone listening in today.
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